Global warming... Not

A week ago I started a new thread under the same subject but I was attacked on a personal level to the point I felt it not fair to the rest of you to have to read through it so I deleted the entire thread.
I will moderate this thread to prevent personal attacks on myself and others who wish to discuss this subject civilly.
This subject must be discussed as it affects us all. We have many examples similar to what you will read below that put doubt on what we are being told about Global warming. Don't stand for intimidation stopping your questions.

Here are some notes from The Conan O’Brian Show demonstrating a good example of the quality of information Al Gore is spreading throughout the world
Tuesday, November 17, 2009
Innumerate Al [John Derbyshire]
Al Gore on Conan O'Brien's show the other day:

Conan: Now, what about … you talk in the book about geothermal energy …
Al: Yeah, yeah.
Conan: and that is, as I understand it, using the heat that's generated from the core of the earth …
Al: Yeah.
Conan: to create energy, and it sounds to me like an evil plan by Lex Luthor to defeat Superman. Can you, tell me, is this a viable solution, geothermal energy?
Al: It definitely is, and it's a relatively new one. People think about geothermal energy — when they think about it at all — in terms of the hot water bubbling up in some places, but two kilometers or so down in most places there are these incredibly hot rocks, 'cause the interior of the earth is extremely hot, several million degrees, and the crust of the earth is hot …
[Me] The geothermal gradient is usually quoted as 25–50 degrees Celsius per mile of depth in normal terrain (not, e.g., in the crater of Kilauea). Two kilometers down, therefore, (that's a mile and a quarter if you're not as science-y as Al) you'll have an average gain of 30–60 degrees — exploitable for things like home heating, though not hot enough to make a nice pot of tea. The temperature at the earth's core, 4,000 miles down, is usually quoted as 5,000 degrees Celsius, though these guys claim it's much less, while some contrarian geophysicists have posted claims up to 9,000 degrees. The temperature at the surface of the Sun is around 6,000 degrees Celsius, while at the center, where nuclear fusion is going on big-time, things get up over 10 million degrees.

If the temperature anywhere inside the earth was "several million degrees," we'd be a star.
11/17 07:03 PMShare

Nice Job Al
I’m sure all the other facts you have been preaching about global warming are just as accurate as this..... Right Al?

FMR

FMR>>>

Good to see that you are back at making threads and continue to do so. All the best on your return.

I do not watch C.O. nor have even listened to A.G. on any issue, and that's not because I am not an American, but I never found A.G. to be any driving force with a correct purpose in mind, after all he is a failed politician and failed politicians are basically failed businessmen too, in my mind, and you can tell that by what you quoted above>>>serious issues of the Earth on a comedy show are a complete mish-mash of logic I could never watch and gain knowledge. But, FMR you spotted a flaw!

...and he is dead wrong on geothermal energy too. It is NOT new. As a designer in Architecture, as you know, I have designed several houses in the '80's using the thermal extraction properties from mere well water! It's a process of heat transfer, from one source to another form for distribution or storage or direct use. But contamination of well water was the issue that has placed a restriction on this kind of energy transfer technology-but it can be done. Well-water is never frozen and with a water heat exchanger 'heat' can be gotten from the cold water then transferred into an air-handling system or another water/glycol distribution system to heat a building...been done before, lots of times.

Frankly, digging at 2 kilometer depths is not required. Several hundred feet will do the trick. But I think at that stage an 'URBAN DESIGNER WORKING WITH PLANNERS AND GEO-THERMAL ENGINEERS' can solve 'mass-thermal heat exchange problems' required for large urban scale development projects of residential and commercial works-this kind of work will give 'the grid'[and there are several grids I'm talking about-not only hydro!] a bit of relief...no one needs A.G. for that. Its a question of money...and lots of it. An underground thermal distribution system is a big adventure to undertake. I personally worked on one project in the mid '60's where the Detroit river water was used to chill University campus buildings, not with air conditioning but with 'conditioned air' to bring the hot summer temperature in an older building in line with the amount of people in it. Very successful project with underground tunnels and piping to these various older buildings that lacked refined design of mechanical engineering technology of the time-hey-humans in an enclosed non-vented space expel HEAT and CO2-lots of it. But once in place, it must be maintained forever until abandoned.

We humans require a very moderate temperature to survive. We don't need 90 to 100 degrees to be warm. Our skin comfort zone is in the high '60's to low 70's F whereby 72F [22.22C] is the ideal design goal for interior temperature and is used in thermal design of walls in building technology throughout North America for the last 75 years or so.[since we decided to use air-conditioners in our homes and office buildings]

Why didn't A.G. talk about what I just typed? If he did, you FMR wouldn't have noticed. He is proceeding way out there on a limb.

Like most failed individuals with a big mouth spouting various retrospective falsifications, A.G. should get an honest real down to Earth job and shut up. LOL

yt
dx :wink:

Thanks dx
I suppose the GW crowd would be more respected if they didn’t have AL as their mouth piece but they do. In my opinion, the answers they give for their perceived problem gives away the agenda. Money redistribution is their answer. Look at Al Gore for example. He gets paid to run around the world screaming "the sky is falling" all the while butchering the science he is using as a club to beat us all in the head. Like baby seals the majority of people just simply comply with never a thought that the legislation being drafted is going to steal their freedom and do nothing to eliminate pollution. The rich will get richer. While we may reduce co2 production in the US, China and India will increase their production with no impact on the problem (if there is one). In the end I suppose there is little or nothing each of us can do but at least it’s nice to know we are being lied to. The world is being herded into one world Government socialism and science has been hijacked as the vessel to get us there.
Do you care?
FMR

Read through this page unless you have already been drinking the Koolaid

http://www.bobbyshred.com/globalwarmingfools.html#royspencer
FMR

I do like that site.

There are a LOT of govt policies I would like to see EXPOSED.

Being a politician doesn't instantly make you "not stupid"(spell potato),,

Al found his holly wood link with global warming.A star was born,,no longer to stand in Clinton's shadow.

The $$$$$$$$$$$ spent on this bu**shit,
could have put a maned mission on Mars 4 times.

When will man learn that self edification is not the answer?
Of course we all have to have "something " to believe in,,, global warming as presented is not it.More creeks,lakes,rivers.are polluted by animal manure than anything else.No proof,common sense.
The seasons all blend together, then become sharpley distinct form the other.Over and over.Proof? Observation.

Joe in Texas

FMR, I don't think it is fair to put too much emphasis on a slip of the tongue in a Conan interview, mixing thousands and millions. In fact I only saw the Conan Obrien show once and 5 minutes in I was too brain dead to operate the remote.

dx - I think the challenge is to provide power, not just modeate building heat. Geothermal power is one avenue to pursue and really the hot dry rock approach seems the most appropriate. The link is just one of a multitude of references I found on Googling.
http://www.ga.gov.au/image_cache/GA3681.pdf
Certainly the geothermal approach enables some balancing of energy requirements. By that I mean it works at night when the sun is down and potentially the wind is not blowing. Over the last century we have fueled our energy intensive civilization with the reserves created by hundreds of millions of years of sunshine. With expanding population and developing countries using increasing energy we will inevitably reach a peak point for fossilised energy and be thrown back pretty much on the daily energy input of sun and gravity (tidal). As far as energy use goes it is amazing how many people do not understand the implications of the exponential curve.

:-(

We have in this area a local thermionic energy generation(conversion) system which used a gas fired tire factory heat source to heat steam and convert that to electricity. As the factory went out of business I'll have to research the effects overall, as the process was initially rather expensive, but used a 'wasted' heat source and water cooling system which was headed into the sky without efforts to draw the available energy from the system of high heat.
The waste of our mega-la-mania social upward ascendancy into chrome-y bling-bling 'heaven', with each a shiny car or better yet two cars, a new house for each couple, at a hundred thousand dollars average for each, and the average wage at more than a hundred times the undeveloped countries average wage, is the topic under discussion as much as GW(global warming), and the pollution-ozone-sulfur dioxide air,grey water rivers, and even the major cities former practice of simply pouring unprocessed sewage into the ocean coastal margins.
We had all those effects in the major cities I lived in until the last quarter of the Twentieth Century. During this first quarter of the Twenty-first Century we are negotiating a limitation to the common former practices of being human 'cockroaches'.
As to whether we will achieve a transcendency to the expectations of our plans to clean up the mess we are making, I can give a few responses to the GW story that are nearly neutral, to elicit more detailing, but the overall solution to the growing human population injury we have underway, may not be dependent upon the GW policies adopted ultimately.
The interglacial period we are in, could swing either direction in a few thousand years. We show figures of warming trending in the long term records used to describe the 'ice ages' of near history, but the same records show a varied fluctuating temperature set of minor patterns in the short term history of interglacial swings in our current temperature realm, and show the same at the maximum and minimum extreme ranges. As the records cannot place a trend beyond a few dozen years of air-water stats, we could experience a trend either direction in another quarter century.
I believe the actual process of controlling the consumption/pollution aspects of population growth are far more serious and potentially dangerous in the demand to use a bulk of the oil coal and even natural gas within a few centuries of growth and upward standards ascendancy for a minor portion of the world population. Our intent to use and consume is nearly all a one-way process set of techniques at present.
The interest in deep geothermal heat conversion by thermionic or conduction transfer is one of many techniques that might be usable in slight numbers, or might be a damage to the fresh water groundwater reserves more than an asset.
Shallow heat sources, volcanic or 'pluton' localized sources, all might be a long term addition to energy sources to moderate either swing to hotter or more cold average temperatures worldwide.
We refused to allow the chloro-fluoro-carbons and other chemistry to be impeded for the entire period of the first century of oil use in industry, but even coal has shown in past centuries, and especially this last century to be a very destructive run-amok expanding cause of real damage to humans, and possibly to the overall heat balance on Earth.
As our effects are considered a minor bulk mass effect we think of wealth and convenience. We tend to deny terms longer than our comforts personally. The real challenge is to know accurately whether the figures show a true rising average temperature, and additionally to know whether the length of the change to an altered state of weather and ocean circulation will bring an unstoppable trend to bear against future generations of humans.
I see the same process as the out of control credit industry, in the applied industry using heat and one way chemistry operations to fund a 'hundred years war' against many future generations of our children.
There is a voluminous release of 'research' on the topic of oceanic altered currents, ozone depletion, and a few dozen other injuries we know are affecting us worldwide.
I cannot see the discussion of GW as a simple matter of temperature- we are using oil as a substitute for our prior use of wood and plant/animal techniques, and the wealth is real, but the term of success may be a couple centuries and no more for oil as the basis for the wealth.
For the conservation reasons, we should work on implementing the alternative sources, such as the well understood solar, wind, and 'hard work'.
Most of us in the conversation have cars made in the past few years, not for needy reasons, but for the chrome, effacement, and the mindful process of group/pack behavior(faddism).
Stability of long term industry health world-wide is more the reasoning behind much of the efforts, I believe.
Again, we are arguing about a standard of income/lifestyle tens of a hundred and more times as great as most of the underdeveloped worlds population. We have several obligations beyond our vision perspective. The solutions and damages are going to be obvious after the path occurs. The GW challenge is to find a real set of records in the near term, and present a economical alternative to changes.
The subject deserves the attention it gets, as seen in the many NASA projects on the topic.
A misstatement, in relative terms, can't anything but embarrassing for Al Gore, but my own typing has become worse the past few years, and it is related to the inability to speak out freely as I might like, so I am sure he can recover his composure when allowed to do so. Over-ranging gestures are not uncommon, and dyslexic mental interactions are transient for most of us.

Can we assume the differential temperature on Mars was similarly greater in the early epochs as the range observed here on Earth currently? Mars is a cooling planet over long geological time, but should have been much warmer at depth, and as the Earth is definitely heating up over geological time,we are challenged to give the short term a careful measure in the trending swings.

I would like to respond to the posting message I recieved as well.
I may or may not be talking beyond the social speed limit. This occurred as I posted just now.
.

.

Here is a good set of informational videos with independant study. No hype, just facts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr5O1HsTVgA&feature=related

FMR

Just some facts.
.
Can anyone disagreeing with the global warming(or the reduction of pollution), treaties and international accords of most all governments of the entire world, give me a single clear thinking reason why most governments are ready to submit to a limiting of their rapid growth and upward aspiring ascendancy of middle to upper income population increases in statistical wealth?
We are relating this appropriately to the working class to poor sectors declines of relative wealth during the massive century long spiraling use of one-time-only resources, such as oil. The use of oil to give a differentializing income increase mainly for the middle to topmost income levels has made the concept of being a millionaire a 'fad' of scrabbling desperation of many who cannot see the vast differentials being produced. We have swamped the lower income populations with wealth, and currently in developed countries with poverty benefits, but we really aren't seeking a reasonable wage for a reasonable hours work. We have substituted a near total lack of work and effort, for a greater value of person, paid not for production, but for effacement, and the shiny purchased appearances of glitter and posture during conversation.

Organize the working and poor populations for a decision by the large majority of the worlds population, giving them a long term and carefully assembled set of science content facts.

Do not rely upon the voices of a few millions of millionaires to think for yourselves.

Find the truth to save your lives and your childrens lives.

Thanks Dana
I don't know anyone that’s not interested in making a cleaner world to live in or in reducing the amount of fuel we use but neither do we want to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" either.
Take for example the screw in florescent light bulbs that use less power. Did you all know they contain mercury? Read the disposal instructions and you will see that if you break one, you almost need to call out the hazmat team to clean it up!
People won’t do this and it will lead to an increase in Mercury poisoning in children.

This is just one example how we have gone crazy in our green effort. Mankind is acting dumber by the minute. Let’s make good decisions not hasty ones and use our money wisely to solve problems
FMR

That applies to me directly, because I live in a hundred year old building where periodic transient voltage/current pulses occur at times, and my compact fluorescent bulbs literally explode with the bottoms breaking apart, giving not just darkness, but a piece of plastic base to pick up after searching for it.
I find the current compacts not adequate anyhow, and hope a better solution can be produced. Mine last a few months only. Not the best deal in $$ terms. Now I'll handle them with surgeons gloves on.

Another over-ranging gesture by Al Gore, below, in my daily Yahoo news reading, at this linked story about his presence at the global UN climate conference. Similar to your topic item.
"Some of the models suggest that there is a 75 percent chance that the entire north polar ice cap during some of the summer months will be completely ice-free within the next five to seven years," Gore said.

His office later said he meant nearly ice-free, because ice would be expected to survive in island channels and other locations."

So your topic point is square on the money as a character assessment.
The content has him motivated, and apparently desperate.
He perhaps should be given a chance to speak in detail about a comprehensive solution, to tame his commentating with the burdens of a library sized set of plans of action world-wide.
That should give him several man-years of tedious paperwork in the accounting and techno-applications, and over-ranging would drive the figures thru the roof. We could ask him to find the best human balance, and tell him we will judge the policy statement by statement, when we assess the finished product for it's accuracy.

The figures are over the map in the many interpretations about the various climate effects.
He seems to bring on the criticism by his own words.

A link to my earlier comment on the 'millions of millionaires' as the voice of the social 'movers' who we are told to listen to in the realm of science/industry leadership. Seeing the value of men by there bank balances can be a severe mistake, and commonly is so.

We must keep a full diligent ear to the important ideas we face, and do so with our own 'science of reason'.

Oh Come on Al!
Just how many mistakes can Al Gore Make until we all understand that he is deliberately lying and retracting only after he is publicly caught http://www.examiner.com/x-14143-Orange-County-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m12d15-CopenhagenAl-Gore-caught-in-a-big-fat-global-warming-liehas-to-retract-his-Arctic-ice-fib

Unfortunately Al Gore is what many people see as Sciences representative
FMR

FMR. Dr Maslowski said that he could not be so precise as the 75% probability figure. But perhaps you would like to read his actual predictions.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7139797.stm

Your stance reminds me of the old chestnut of the man falling from the Empire State building passing the 2nd floor muttering 'so far so good'.

I suppose you will label me a flat earther now.
I simply don't like being constantly lied to by politicians who have ulterior motives. Al Gore has gotten Super rich by spewing lies and exaggerations to the tune of one hundred million dollars in five years. The political answers to Global climate change show no promise of solving the problem and may in fact make matters worse. This is where I lodge my complaint. Not with the pure science. I will assume Science will check itself and attempt to disprove its theory before arriving at a conclusion but it seems as though all of that has been thrown out of the window in favor of quick panicked legislation that only results in wasted money and the loss of freedom for all. Insults seem to be the accepted way to deal with people like me that question to see if the science is being checked.
There are many climate scientists now that do not agree with man caused global warming and everyone should question what politicians are doing. Here is a list of some that disagree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warminge


Politicians want control but its not the environment they want control of. Its you and Me
FMR

http://www.algore.com/

yt
dx
:D

Someone worked out global-warmist band Radioplay actually used about as much carbon on one of their world tours as a million people in terms of average use. Arch-hypocrites!

As for geothermal energy, it certainly needs investigation and could prove v. useful. However, people do need to understand that it raises earthquake which could be a serious issue where such facilities are cited close to sizeable settlements.

No energy system is problem-free!

However, personally, I do think we should move swiftly to green energy solutions: wind, water, solar, hydro, tidal, sea and river current, osmosis, energy from waste and biomass. Put them all together and we can meet our energy needs.

One I'm particularly interested in is tapping the jet stream - a much more powerful and consistent form of wind energy.

Somewhere I read that Al Gores home energy bill is 8 times the national average with little or no alternative energy sources used. Couple that with the use of a corporate Jet and Limousine service, he doesn't set much of an example for the rest of us. I'm working on a solar and wind driven system for my home just to be helpful to the cause and Al can't do a darn thing but screw a few Mercury laden florescent bulbs around his place.

I'm all for cleaner energy including Nuclear. In the rest of the world we seem to be just fine with the peaceful use of Nukes (like Iran) but not here! We had better quickly come up with a way of replacing coal because soon the only country who will be allowed to use coal will be China and you and I will be paying the bill. (Pssst.. doesn’t help cut down the pollution because now all manufacturing will be done in china and not here)
I can't wait until I can get my own home off the grid and who knows at the rising cost of power maybe I can make a bit of cash selling my excess back to the power company.

Tapping the jet stream Sounds cool but it seems it would take one heck of a tower to reach it. Maybe here in Colorado we could mount something lets say at about 14,000 feet on top of the Rockies to generate power?
FMR

No - jetstream energy would be reached with flying "kites" tethered to the ground.

Here is a link that explains the concept:

http://www.skywindpower.com/ww/index.htm

We have high altitude tethered observation balloons already. The kite concept is well understood. And we know how to generate electricity with turbines. It's really question of bringing together these various techniques.

If you were building a tower, I think you'd have another 16000 feet to go on top of the Rockies - so it has to be a tether.

Another interesting technology is osmosis. THere is now a test plant operating in Norway. Google on osmosis and Norway and you should get some leads on that.